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A little quiz ;-)
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Dustin
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
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Location: Erlangen, Germany

PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's it! The trick, compared with Logic's solution, is that now it takes longer 'till a jewel falls onto the inbox.
I checked your cave with Gdash and with a delay of 24 pics (a realistic magnitude for the BD1 engine, for example), Rockford is immediately crushed by the top diamond without any chance to escape.
Logic's solution is good for delays between 4 and 13 pics, which is too little for early engines.

Alright, your turn, subotai!
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LogicDeLuxe
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dustin wrote:
I checked your cave with Gdash and with a delay of 24 pics (a realistic magnitude for the BD1 engine, for example)
Wrong. All C64 engines take always 2 seconds for the hatching delay (except bug conditions and XDC). Thus level 1 takes less scan cycles until hatching than level 5 does. I'm sure, there are conditions where you either can escape the falling diamonds, or where you hatch after they are lying on you.
This solution only works for 1 level engines and for those which let you adjust speed and/or hatching delay separately. BD1 and BD2 are not among those.
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subotai
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Joined: 25 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dustin wrote:
There aren't any special effects (e.g. uncollectable jewels etc.). The cave could be made with any engine.


My cave works with...
- BD1 engine level 2,
- PLCK engine cave delay 5,
- CrazyLight-Tools cave delay 6.

It does not work with the BD2 engine because the inbox-hatching is always to early (I checked all 5 levels)

Well, is there any solution for all existing levels and engines? I don't think so.
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Dustin
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well subotai, if the hatching is too EARLY, this shouldn't be a problem. Just set the jewels a few rows lower or so. A problem would only appear if the delay was too LATE, because it might be difficult (if possible) to change the cave so that the jewels takes even longer until it falls onto the inbox.

Anyway, subotai, your turn!
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Dustin
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Logic: You're right, of course, that the BD1 and BD2 engines measure the delay in seconds and not in pics. That was only to be a comparison. Of course, the cave works only for one specific difficulty level. But where did I say that the solution has to work for all 5 levels simultaneousely? Wink

This would indeed not be possible with 10 jewels only. But what I meant was only "it should be possible with any engine". And if you use the BD1 engine and call subotai's cave A/2, it's unsolvable. If you use the BD2 engine, a slight modification of the cave leads to the same result. That's what I intended Smile
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LogicDeLuxe
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dustin wrote:
But where did I say that the solution has to work for all 5 levels simultaneousely? Wink
Dustin wrote:
- The cave is unsolvable.
The cave isn't unsolvable, if it can be solved in at least one level, isn't it? In that case, only particular levels of it are unsolvable.
To take a famous example: Is BD3 Cave A solvable? I think, we agree that the answer is yes. Otherwise, no one would progress to Cave B.

I don't insisting in taking the turn. So the next question may be asked.
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subotai
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LogicDeLuxe wrote:
The cave isn't unsolvable, if it can be solved in at least one level, isn't it? In that case, only particular levels of it are unsolvable.

It is unsolvable depending on the settings. And the settings are in this example "level2" for the bd1 engine. If the amount of required diamonds was 11, it was also unsolvable Twisted Evil Bd1 Intermission 3 was also solvable if it was a normal cave, but you cannot solve it in the game. For me, a cave is solvable, when all five levels are solvable. Depends always of the point of view.

Sorry Marek I understand, what you mean, but I think this discussion is fruitless. Or have you got a solution for all levels and all engines? Wink
LogicDeLuxe wrote:
I don't insisting in taking the turn

Me neither! But as Dustin wishes, I do.

Here is an easy puzzle:



Just describe how you can solve the cave. The amount of required diamonds is "1". The firefly moves clockwise (PLCK-engine, the firefly faces to the left). I give you unlimited time. The cave delay is 8 for PLCK.

Richard
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Dustin
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool puzzle Very Happy
After hatching, I start to panic and run left to right and vice versa to avoid the firefly. Then I get a flash of genius and let the left and middle rock fall down. Still dancing around the fly, I clear the lower right piece of dirt (3 7) (if (0 0) is the upper left corner). Then I must be fast: I wait until the fly is at (3 3), then I quickly run to (2 2) and snap away the dirt piece under the rock. The rock will hit the fly which is caught in the lower right corner. Then I collect my very deserved jewel and exit.
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subotai
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Dustin Wink You solved it, so it's your turn again.

Here is my solution, a bit easier and no need to panic Wink
After hatching you let the middle boulder fall down on the lower dirt. Now the boulder lies on (2,6). You go to the lower left corner (1,7) and wait until the firelfy is at position (3,5) coming from down (3,6) and moving to the up. Now you dig to the right and as a result the firefly will move counter-clockwise in a small circle. Go to the up (don't worry, the firefly cannot hit you, as long as you keep on moving) and let the right boulder fall down on the firefly at the right moment. Let the boulder fall when the firefly is at (3,6).
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Dustin
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, right, that works, too! Very Happy

OK, once again I've got some kind of puzzle for you. It's inspired by another hobby of me, chess. Some "freaks" build illegal chess clusters. An illegal cluster is a position which is impossible, but if you remove any piece (except for the kings), the position becomes possible.

Inspired by this, I ask you for a cave with the following properties:
- normal size 40x22
- initial fill: space, initial border: steelwall
- The cave has exactly one startpoint and exit and exactly three other elements (classic elements only, let's say BD1 elements only; the entire cave is made with the BD1 engine) None of the five elements may be put into the border.
- One diamond is required
- The cave is unsolvable, BUT if you remove ANY of the three elements (not startpoint or exit), the cave becomes solvable. (to be more clearly: if you remove one of the three elements, no matter which one, you always get a solvable cave).

Most likely there are several possible solutions. The one I think of is independant of hatching delays *grin*

Hope it's fun Smile
Cheers Dustin
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LogicDeLuxe
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dustin wrote:
and exactly three other elements
Is there a limit how many pieces of each element may be placed, or is it just one of each?
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LogicDeLuxe
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never mind my question. I found a solution with one piece of each element. Milling time is set to one second.
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Dustin
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool! Your turn, Logic.

More than one element of the same kind wasn't forbidden. My solution included two diamonds and a rock.
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Dustin
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, now I understad your question really, Logic Wink I meant three elements, not three kinds of elements Smile
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LogicDeLuxe
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dustin wrote:
My solution included two diamonds and a rock.
May we see it?

Here is my question:
Take a look at my new benchmark tool which by an incredibly coincidence is very Boulder Dash related: http://www.gratissaugen.de/files/BMARK.ZIP

Take this conditions:
- No keys or buttons were pressed during the measuring.
- It is executed on a real machine, not an emulator.
- No freezer cartridge is used.
- No pokes were entered at any time.
- Neither were any other tools used.
- The score is 335.

How is this possible?
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